Debt Questions

Hi there.

I am in desperate need of some informal assistance with this problem, especially regarding the legal arguments which I find hard to understand which varies greatly to what I probably think is fair or unfair.

This has a very long history and I will summise as best as I can and any further detail can be provided.

14 years ago I set up an HSBC account.
12 years ago I applied for a graduate account with HSBC which came with an interest free overdraft. It was agreed at the time that I would recieve £1500, then upon graduation this would be reduced on a sliding scale over 3 years in £500 segments until the balance was 0.
The above never happenned.
Just over 2 years agoI recieved a letter from them saying they are taking away my overdraft facility after a review and they want immediate payment of the full amount within a month.
I could not pay the full outstanding amount and offered at the time 33% of my disposable income as repayment.
This was rejected and several threatening letters ensued.
I then investigated my account and found that the equivalent amount that they were asking for, had been applied to my account over its lifetime in charges (if I include interest on those charges its virtually exactly the same as the amount owed) after several more threatening letters and after reading up about bank charges I put the account into dispute.
I also as a gesture of goodwill set up a standing order of £12/week to put into the account which at the time they were still charging interest on dispute it being in dispute. they themselves cancelled the SO.
As the bank case vs OFT I recieved several updated letters all the same as everyone elese.As soon as the case was fionished I recieved a demand from metropolitan for the full outsanding amount to be paid.
I sent a letter back saying that although the test case was not successful, it does not mean that I can not dispute the account and the charges levied against it. HSBC replied to this by saying that they have no further comments to make on the matter and this was their final reply.
More letters and phone call from DCA
I sent a letter back saying that I am still disputing the account and under 13.6 of the banking code they should not be seeking to collect the debt until the dispute is resolved.
Furthermore, and this is quite important, I said to them that how can I even access the dispute properly when I have TWICE paid £10 to HSBC for a SARS. And on both occasions they have never produced a signed original copy of the contract.
the letter was ignored. And yesterday I got the standard letter from the sols saying that I have two weeks from the date of the letter (already dated about a week ago!) otherwise they're taking me to court.

Now I am at a loss as to how to proceed and any advice wold be appreciated.

synopsis of the points which I think are not correct but not sure how this legally affects the case.

1. That the debt was not reduced on a reducing scale as agreed-it would not exist if it had-this is not responsible banking.
2. that it is unreasonable to charge over £100 for 1 charge (imo of course)
3. The charges are unfair (and possibly unlawful)and not in consumer interest
4. that they closed my current account without even notifying me
5. That they won't provide me with an original signed agreement
6. they did not act reasonably when I made serious attempts to negotiate a reasonable payment plan.

This is one of those occasions when we are going to point you to another forum, as this is a complex case and you need legal views.

Please post this on this site:

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/

They will be able to help you much better than we can.

Tim

Get yourself over to the Consumer Action Group Debt help (legal section)

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/fo ... al-issues/

they will help you with good detailed advice for action.

This bank is acting illegally by not responding in the prescribed time to your SAR - presumably they took the £10.

tactically its hard to judge whether or not to make a pre-emptive swipe now or to wait untill they file a CCJ - which they are quite likely NOT to do. If they do this though then you would go for a strike-out on the grounds that the account is in dispute or alternatively and in my opinion the better option - dispute the amount that they are claiming and let the Judge decide

They have a dodgy case and they know it which is why I strongly suspect they just putting the squeeze on in which case do them for harassment - bit like being savaged by a dead sheep though !

Thanks guys for your response. I have registered with the other forums.

Its quite difficult I have found to get my head around the legal speak, so hopefully they can help.

May I ask what is a strike out mean?

Yes they have recieved £20 in total for SARS requests which were only sent to me partially. I actually think in all the SARS requests I have sent in my battles vs banks I have never recieved one that consists of a copy of the original agreement, but none have ever got to this stage either.

I wasn't also sure whether its the amount that I dispute, or whether I have to submit some sort of counter claim against the charges and interest applied which is not backed up by the original agreement.??

I'm not even sure how the whole process works so I better do some more reading up, but I thought it particularly cheeky that the sols dated the letter 22nd july and I recieved it on the 28th and they put a 14 day restriction on my response?. I thought the postal rule would apply here, and therefore it would be 14 days from when they actually posted it not from the date they elect to put on the letter. Clearly they did not post it on the 22nd!!

Strike out means that the judge dismisses their claim.

The legal beagle site has a good overview of the CCA1974 which act governs bank accounts unsecured loans etc.

Do you own property? If not there is little that they can actually do.

They can issue a default notice but the CCA1974 prescribes what this must contain - they must have issued a default notice prior to putting in a CCJ claim. If the default notice is incorrect - and it must state the correct amount then they fall at the first hurdle.

From what you describe they are certainly kicking up a cloud of small pebbles and dust - I wonder why?

I think a good action now would be to send a formal letter (recorded and signed for delivery) advising them that the account is now in dispute as they have failed to fully comply with your SAR and presumably the CCA request (legall beagles have letter templates). If the account is in dispute then in theory they cannot put a CCJ in - but I'm not sure that a CCJ would be your worst enemy - it would certainly set the amount of the debt and get the charges and interest crap resolved.

Quite simply it is up to them to prove that you owe the amount they claim and their claim has to be rooted in a contract that you signed. Get mugged up on CCA1974 keep all correspondence including envelopes (paper trail) and log all phone calls - insist all communication is in writing.

Visi

Thanks.

I never requested a CCA request just on two occasions the SAR request, which I thought were the same thing??

My proposed plan of action before I posted here was very similar to what you have said (great minds think alike!

Basically I'm going to write back to the DG and say that its in dispute (as they well know) and any attempt in trying to collect it will be in breach of 13.6 of the banking code.

I will then next week send another letter, named CSR, which includes yet another request for the original contract to be sent. And I have read that if they don't send it with the CPR request, then the judge won't look so kindly on them if it gets to court.

Very worrying though.

The CSR letter is the CCArequest - legal beagles have a template. If they fail to comply the account is then in dispute. It won't stop them going for a CCJ which being a bank I think is likely

BUT all the crap and confusion they are kicking up is designed to worry and frighten you - it ain't a criminal offence to owe money - there is actually very little they can do and they know it. So just lay your plans - that alone will perk you up a treat

Create a chronological record and file of all correspondence and actions in preparation for a CCJ pack - now who is the Boss

Thanks a lot. Just talking helps massively, so I can't thank you enough.

Well I guess the worst that can happen is that I get a CCJ against my name which i desperately don't want because that could ruin my career in the short term.

I don't want to sound like i';m trying to get any sympathy, but I think I was treated quite harshly in the case above.

I had the account for over a decade and for most of it never went over agreed amount. In the latter stages I went over the amount but it was never by that much and I got paid weekly so it was always repaid within a few days (was on a low wage at the time and this helped "glue" togther cash differences.

I even tried giving them money towards the debt and they cancelled it, I offered 33% of disposible income and that was "not acceptable".

so in general I am a little bit peeved with HSBC about the handling of the whole thing because I really enjoyed banking with them for over a decade. But now I intend to fight them all the way as they seem to have no leniancy or reasonableness at all.

This is about MONEY, PROFIT and BONUSES

treat it as business - loyalty has no place here

get yourself 'all boned up'

get your 'case notes' ready and indexed

send out some of those template letters adjusted to your circumstances - you may be somewhat bemused by the way their manner changes once they've copped onto the fact that they are dealing with someone who is informed and knows how to assert their rights - worked for me when I was dealing with Northern Rock - meaner than a nest of vipers that lot - 3 years on they are getting their money back at a rate that I CAN AFFORD and are not adding extra charges or interest and the only contact with them is a statement every 6 months. In spite of all the threats about courts and solicitors all I ever got was a default which I don't give a rats a*se about anyway.

You ought to read Chandjay's posts - see a real Debt Meister in action - certainly put me straight, this hombre still enjoys cruise holidays and jollies in Spain - you couldn't make it up!

And finally ...............

just to show my gratitude to NR, next year the debt will be totally cleared and my DMP finished. Well as I will have paid up early I'm going after them for a refund of interest - and I'll get it even if I have to haul them to court...then I'm going to p*ss it up a wall

Right this just gets more bizarre.

1 day after recieving the letter from DG I get another one

Not sure what the implications of it are exactly, but it is bizarre,

"Dear...

This letter confirms that, as requested, our clients are prepared to hold this account in abeyance while the matters raised have been looked into.

This concession is granted soley in the light of your cuurent financial circumstances. You must contact us on...if your financial circumstances change.

Upon expiry of the above period we will require your proposals for repayment of the debt"

Actually, there is nothing bizzare about this latest letter at all. As mr Duff said :- So they are now indeed 'backing off' so to speak, as they now realsise they cannot intimidate you any longer.

The letter you have received is a normal reaction to the commuincations you have sent to them. They thought they could get the better of you, and now know that you have got the better of them.

They won't admit that of course, hence why they say :-

Just DON'T give in now, and the pressure in their inflated threats will soon be almost zero.

Thanks but I have never written to them which makes it seem strange